Bad Business with Steve Rosenstein and Andi Rosenstein
Fitigues to R&R Surplus
Now they are in Phoenix hoping to keep the magic going with their new lines R & R Surplus and PE Vintage.
The meetings
The meetings with the Rosenstein’s were wonderful from a creative stand point. They knew what they wanted and were working with capable people to make it happen. They chose my work as standing above and beyond every other photographer that they spoke to. We certainly developed a good collaborative relationship because I was saying the things they wanted to hear, not to deceive them but because I truly believe in the soul of the photography is vital to fashion. I believed it was my passion about what we could do along with the portfolio that made the difference. There were two meetings that I was apart of both around 3 hours long where we discussed among other things what I thought we should do visually, how to really break the mold of what is being done in fashion right now, and how to tell their story along the way.
Contracts Money and Business
Toward the end of the second meeting I was trying to nail down the scope of work, how many images what the expectations were for uniquness in the catalog work, and who would be styling the shoots. It was decided that nearly 40 unique still life photographs (because they were done using models, just too much hassle) was the bare minimum to get started, the creative director I met in the first meeting had already left the project so Andi would be styling. I quoted them my pricing which is openly available here: pricing and estimated the amount of stated work as 3-5 days of shooting.
Negotiations
This is where everything seemed to break down. They had no clue what photography cost in time or in money. I felt blindsided when they had not heard the term “usage” before, considered 40 unique and styled photographs to be less than a day of photographing, and considered a day rate to cover 24 hours of photographing. Didn’t they just come up through the ranks of the fashion world? Didn’t they just tell me they had photographers lining up to get on a plane to fly out from LA, Chicago and NY to shoot this project? And their total expected budget for non exclusive rights to all of MY work was $4000?
Popular Negotiation Strategy
Oh, but I wasn’t aware of the value of working with them. They would continue to work with me as they built their new project into another empire. This is just the beginning. Did I know they have a database of 1.2 million customers addresses and emails to get this project started? Did I know they were world famous and would drop my name at every opportunity?
Word of advice: If you say this to me in a negotiation I will gladly agree and then write it into the contract.
Red Flag List:
- #1 Didn’t know the cost of photography
- #2 Didn’t want to sign a contract
- #3 Refused to pay deposit
- #4 Never wrote anything down, all ‘deals’ made on the phone
- #5 Wanted me to get started immediately
- #6 Claimed to lose my estimate sent by email
Why would I write this blog post?
That is the point of social media, to be a real resource for the community. I understand that deals go bad, people don’t mesh over personalities or money or whatever. That has never before affected my relationship with a person or business. I strongly believe you should choose who you work with and I’ve said no to many clients in the past. This time however I feel Steve and Andi pushed too hard when they decided that because we couldn’t work together they would try and make sure I didn’t work with anyone again.
Whether you choose to work with Steve and Andi is of course up to you. I think they have an amazing vision for the future of downtown phoenix. I personally just can’t do business with no contract, no deposit, and payment in promises…
I am very open with my business so here are the dialogues I have in writing:
The estimate
Hey Steve,
It was great talking to you all today. I really love where you all are at and what you hope to accomplish downtown. I also hope that I can be a advocate for your store when you open and grow with your company in the coming years.
Just as foundation here are my standard national day rates as posted online
http://tysoncrosbie.com/pricing:
$285/hr
$2280/day
National contracts are minimum 1 day.
Delivered images are each:
$100 for product (only used in a catalog)
$300 for key images (used as collateral, marketing, basically anywhere.)
All images from a shoot will be available for review, the contract does not limit your ability to purchase as many or few images (product or key) that you feel necessary.
I promised to send over a quote that took into account attribution and opportunities to grow with your company.
I came up with this number:
$250/hr
$2000/day
National Contract minimum 1 day.
Delivered images are each:
$50 for product (only used in a catalog)
$300 for key images (used as collateral, marketing, basically anywhere.)
A total estimate for the estimated scope of work for R&R as defined by our meeting today 10/14/08
3-4 Days $6000- $8000
40 product images $2000
5 Key images $1500
Estimate: $9500 – $11,500
*for future reference I believe I could shoot a maximum of 6 key images a day or 15 unique product images.
Scheduling will require 50% deposit, remainder due on delivery.
**IMPORTANT**
We need to come to an agreement before the scouting shoot on Thursday at 9am, on Thursday we can sign the contract, develop and complete a shot list and I’d expect to receive the deposit at that time.
Again it was a pleasure meeting with you and I hope we can work together to make this project special.
–
Tyson Crosbie
602.254.2880
tysoncrosbie.com
No response until this morning in text
S&A: Tyson we’re a little behind schedule. Let’s meet at 10 00 ok?
(we arranged to start shooting at 9am today)
TC: I never heard back about the estimate. Are you ready to sign and pay the deposit? Please send response in email. Thanks.
S&A: Never received an estimate and we have never paid a deposit and don’t plan on paying one now.
TC: Steve now has two emails from me. Good luck in all your endeavors.
The Final Emails
Steve,
This estimate is now expired. It is unfortunate that we were unable to come to an agreement.
I feel you’ve been considerably dishonest in these negotiations therefore, future meetings will require a minimum $3000.00 non refundable payment prior to the meeting for art direction and imaging advice.
Sincerely,
Tyson Crosbie
The step too far
Aaron,
I’ve cc’d your pal Tyson on this as well. I’m really disturbed by the attached correspondence and as a friend, strongly urge you to refrain from referring him to anyone else as it is very negative reflection on you.
Steven Rosenstein
R & R Surplus
Scottsdale, AZ.
480-650-9160
Let me know what you think
I know I don’t always say the right thing, I am not perfect. However, I do consider myself fair and when I make a mistake I’ll admit it and make ammends, if I don’t know something I’ll ask, and I rarely, if ever, ask anyone to work on promises. I am a new kind of business person and I am proud to be as open and honest as I can. I feel it attracts the right kind of clients, you know the ones that just get it.
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Wow! I have no idea who these people are, but it seems like a really bad idea to post this on the internet. Naming names and inferring the things that you have here is not going to help you in any way. Maybe you feel better, but I think you will more likely regret this post than find any benefit from it.
Tyson,
Kudos. What you illustrated here, I have been trying to gather up enough courage myself, to communicate for quite some time. I have had colleagues ask if I have seen a good post on firing a client. My advice to them is usually to ID the situation early. There is nothing wrong with what you did and I commend you for bringing it to the forefront. Too many of us (myself included ) have been seduced by the client that has discovered the next biggest thing and promises all sorts of repeat and new business. By not compromising the value of the talent that you have, you strengthen your brand/ company’s credibility. I wholeheartedly believe that a good business relationship should include open and honest communication, just like any relationship. Finally, I am proud to see that dishonesty is getting the negative attention that it deserves. Thanks again Tyson, and know that you are a change agent for all of us. Cheers.
@swedler I guess that is my failing. I didn't hope to benefit from the post, only to provide others out there with some information, you know our (community?) (the web savvy, developers, marketers, and creatives that might find themselves in the same situation) I hope that if I tell my story then maybe it helps someone else. If you read this and see me as being vindictive or inferring something other than the information presented, I am sorry that wasn't my intent.
Steve, Is this any different than him telling his colleges directly? The better business bureau does the same thing. Just thinking.
Thank you for sharing this Tyson. It seems obvious that the nature of the entire transaction changed when the potential client realized you were serious about the deposit. I'm currently kicking myself in the rear for not being so insistent myself and now sit on quite a large unpaid invoice. In the world of creative services we spend a LOT of time romancing the client and educating them on not only our work, history, and ideas, but on the industry overall. This time usually leads to some of the core ideas that the client's project get built around. So to get that far then get haggled over payment terms or with disorganized lack of professionalism is just disrespectful and rude.
Thank you for the support. Been getting lots of pings about how wrong it is to put this info online. I thought that was the point of the internet and social media? Surprised that so many in our same situation think I'm the bad guy for naming names.
That is a challenge, and at the end of the day, your own decision. And I believe each person judges that decision from the perspective of where they're at in their own business. I personally have not built a solid enough reputation to shelter me from that kind of criticism. You however have established yourself, and have a long list of people referring business to you so you can afford to be candid about your experiences. It's tough to stand tall if you're foundation hasn't set underneath you yet ;-)
Hey Tyson, I have a GREAT business idea… people are lining up to get on board with this… It's going to make some killer money but we need to first build it and get the users into it so my investors can see the working model and then they'll start writing the checks. If you can build the site and take all the photos we'll make so much money! We'll just split the profits right down the middle and we'll both be rich!
Can you have it done by next week? :)
I want in Chuck! I'll totally spend hours upon hours making sure I have a full understanding of your great business idea and then spend another week of sun-up to sun-down caffeine-fueled labor researching and writing unique, optimized content geared to convert EVERY visitor cause I believe in your idea so much! On top of that I'll teach you everything I know about how to build a foundation for your online business that caters to perpetual growth in natural traffic and rankings so that even when the search engine algorithms fluctuate, you have every base covered. And because you're so awesome and I *know* you'll bring me more business down the road, I'll do this on spec for a small percentage of the end profit. I mean, how can I pass this up?
Love it… this seems to be the mentality of every client I meet. “If I build it, they will pay”. It should be, “If they pay, I will build it”
Tyson,
You might have been a little quick in your judgment, but that doesn't make it wrong. For the last 10 years I've dealt with the dichotomy of customers not wanting to pay for services until it's finished versus a business that needs payment to produce those services. There are some project flow lists you could have set out in the begining with time tables that might have cleared things up. Always expect the client to know NOTHING about what you do or how it works. Defining this early is key. Setting things straight first always works out better in the end.
This post might very well come back and bite you, or it could really help someone from the other side see things from your point of view. Only time will tell.
Chris
Excellent advice for the future. And with any other client that is exactly where you start, however they were very adept at avoiding any conversation about money or scope of work or contracts. I was intimidated in the final meeting when Steve literally yelled at me to not talk about contracts. But when you run a business you learn something at every turn, I've taken a lot away from this experience. I hope I can keep a lot of the simplicity of my process intact even in the face of these challenges to it. I've been lucky to work with incredible people so far that really get it. Unfortunately the majority of the world isn't ready for open business practices, it requires too much trust. So I'll probably be much more rigid the next time a meeting happens.
The post is what it is, I felt it was necessary. It certainly scares me a lot, but so did putting my prices online, getting rid of rights management and even starting my business in the first place. I feel sad now that I didn't have enough courage to just tell them it was over without it getting to the last emails. Almost more sad that I thought what I was doing was brave, and you know what they say about bravery…
Ballsy. Sometimes emails do not make it through to the recipient, when that happens just be chill about it. If a client does not want to pay a deposit then its up to you to continue with the transaction or not.
You've taken this personally and ran with the emotions. I've dealt with people far worse then this and it does not sound like you made any further attempts to work it out with Steve other then to bail on an assignment. So you sent them an estimate and they expected you to be shooting the next day and you both only relied on email to communicate? Thats a mistake on both your parts but more you then them.
When a client comes to you they expect a professional to lead the way to image creation. Its your job to tell them what is needed to get the job done,not just send them an estimate. They should know every little detail every step of the way.
I think that you should re evaluate your red flag list. Almost every ad job I got was rush, the client needed it yesterday and often clients dont like to pay deposits. If the people at R&R are not familiar with purchasing photography that does not bring up a red flag for me. It just says they are not familiar with purchasing photography. Maybe with their last company they had an art buyer making all the purchases, you dont know and you're assuming.
If deals are made on the phone its your fault if that does not work for you. You can always ask to talk in person and you can make that your policy.
Its cool that you're willing to share this with everyone but as this post reads there are many, many things you could have done besides pass blame to a potential client. Plus adding their names and phone numbers on the post is another example of your unprofessional business practices. However thank you for the lead. I will be contacting them right away.
This post is more of a warning to potential clients about how you operate your business then to warn photographers about this prospect.
Their names and numbers are readily available online already. True there were many many things that led up to this conclusion, I didn't feel it was necessary to add a bunch of hearsay to the post considering I know these clients retain the services of some pretty heavy weight contract lawyers. I hope you do call them, if you get the job please come back and share your story. I don't keep my blog to bad mouth potential clients nor did I do it flippantly. As far as an email going astray, I put a link in the estimate email that they clicked on and therefor I know they got it before (it showed up on my analytics). That is where my main frustration with them came from and the comment of feeling like they were being dishonest.
I happened to run across this one day when looking up information on Fitigues, a company I had experience with “back in the day”. I can tell you that your dealings with the Rosensteins is pretty typical of this pair… Don't believe me? Look at past court cases on Maricopa County's website (http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/Ci...). They've had a long line of creditors and often used some pretty shady business practices that have driven them to bankruptcy more than once.
If you deal with them, require any money up front.. or else you run a good possibility of not getting paid at all. This I know from experience.
Maybe they forgot about the 200K they lost in 2005 being stupid?? Thanks for posting this info, makes me feel a lot better about having this info out there and searchable.. I hope more people will come out and speak about their experience good and bad.
http://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/Ci...
Steve Rosenstein is a good friend of mine. I grew up with him in Wilmette, IL and we both played football on Locust Road with Rahm Emanuel. His email. however, raises serious “impairment of contract” issues and is surprising to me. He shall always remain a cherished friend and fond memory.
Steve and Andi Rosenstein have been successful entrepreneurial for over 25 years. Unless you know the “story behind the story’ nothing should be said, or it could be considered slander! I have known both of these (highly regarded and respectful) people for many, many years and have been privy to the ‘inside’ stories every step of the way. Yes, they have gone from rags to riches and have seen the ups and downs of the retail industry but have always come out in the end for the better. It is ridiculous to even suggest they ‘don’t know the fashion’ industry, how small business retailers have made it for over 20 years??? They had many catalog shoots in the process and personally over looked each and every one. Of COURSE they know that part of the business and obviously didn’t feel comfortable with what ever deals you were trying to get them to sign! They have also, for your information, brought a good number of people along with them down the road of success, and have always remained loyal to those people. Your aggressive and highly over priced business practice’s must have rubbed them the wrong way to back off this business relationship. They too are artist, and trust me, they don’t want to deal with anything negative, right off the bat as they spring their new empire into action.
It is your loss,
Lastly, I think it is completely tacky if not totally illegal to start a ‘campaign of slander” against good people. And, take what information you get over the Internet at face value. Clearly, this dribble you have written is a piece of worthless and incorrect garbage.
In all my years of working with professional photographers including some rather large national personalities I have never once known one to agree to a first time deal without a contract and deposit up front. That is positively ridiculous and anyone that says otherwise is showing they know nothing about the world of fashion photography.
Now, its not unusual for photographers and designers or studios with existing relationships to quickly throw together a shoot without the formality of a signed contract but all parties are clear that’s based on an existing relationship. Obviously there wasn’t one here.
There is something very shady about these brothers. I wish more people posted these types of warnings. Accountability is so important.
Please, run don’t walk away from the Rosensteins. As a former licensee of the Fitigues organization, the entry here could be volumns. For the individual who was a childhood friend, Steve is unreliable, and dishonest. To the photographer, nothing is in writing. For our organization, we bailed quickly and then watched while the Fitigues ship sank. The money paid for legal advise was worth it. However, I suggest anyone considering the Rosenstein’s for business associates, read the three years, 2005, 2006 and 2007 of the the Chico’s published prospectus. It is clear the climate of the business attachment they had with Steve an Andi.
And for Steve and Andi, we survived, not surprisingly, because it took less than a year to see through the faults of your business organization.
BEWARE.
Victoria